#8 Weekly AI News CLI Wars, AI Drama, End of Software Dev w/special guest @Raymmar ​

Welcome to Command AI, the show where we press command F on the internet AI news and somehow still can't find our sanity. I'm Samuel Gregory and this is Kabaza and Rhyma and we're here to decode the weekly chaos in AI web design and development. This week we have $6 billion company vanishes overnight. Vibe coding app hits 100 million the CLI race. Is this the end of appdev as we know it? uh open code drama. Are we getting dumber with uh AI and Anthropic uses blackmail when pressured? But we'll get into all that on this week's episode. Nice. Um so IO I'm I'm presuming you're you're scrubbed up on everything that's been going on. Hopefully it's hard to escape really, but our first Well, I've got plenty of thoughts on the IO drama.

Um do you wanna do you want to take us through it uh Kabaza what you've been reading and what you've been hearing? Yeah. So apparently there is another company called uh IO and this is similar to the company from Johnny IV uh who some Sam Alman from OpenAI acquired for $6.5 billion if I'm not wrong. uh similar name and apparently similar product. Uh they reached out to some altman. They pitched him for 10 million only. Compare that to 6.5 billion and some altman didn't accept um and apparently later on uh they asked again and openai rejected again saying that their product is not similar and something like that. But apparently now they have um um they are suing OpenAI because uh the name is the same.

Well, it's pronounced the same uh and the product is maybe very similar. We don't know that, but that's the interesting part. I like it. Yeah. Like it's almost like they've stolen everything. It's almost like too it's so bizarre that it can't be true. Like I don't think I don't know. I don't know what to make of it. It's And I was going to show you as well the little Have you seen the device? Right. Have you seen what I were doing? Yeah, I did. I let me let me um share that because and we can watch it real quick. Gosh, got to learn this thing. Share screen. Um it's pretty it's pretty cool. Obviously, this guy is um I don't know if you can hear that.

Can you to be honest? But this um this device sits in your ear and you can see him here. He's like talking with his friends at this dinner table. Obviously, he's not because he's doing a TED talk, but he's asking to enhance the voice of these two people in front of him because he can barely hear them. And then he's subsequently asking a baby to shut up because there's a baby crying. is in. Yeah. Turn that baby down and things like that. So, it's an in real. Yeah. Yeah. It's um it's it's a pretty cool device, but I I suppose the drama kind of comes into play when we're thinking like the name is the same and the device is the same.

And I just don't think that I don't know. But do you know it's the same? Like, you know, like we don't really know what AI what OpenAI was going to build. It's just the name is really what they're going after. the the IO name. Um Yeah. I also, you know, like no offense, but nobody's going to wear that hockey puck in their ear. Yeah. Like that's that's the thing with all these folks. It's like and I don't know. I I have no love for like stealing people's and it just seems like Open AI like all these AI companies are just ingesting everything they can. They're like screw it. It's all ours. You know, it's in the public domain.

It's basically ours, you know? And so to me, this is just another like we're just going to do whatever we want. We're big. We got more money. Come fight us in the, you know, like in the in in the in the courtroom and we we'll do whatever, right? Like I just don't think they have any real scruples over there. They're just they know winner takes all at the end of this thing and all this stuff will take years to litigate and so they just don't care. Like I honestly think it's it's pretty gross, but that's that's what it comes down to at a at a high level. I think this is another episode of uh Silicon Valley.

Again, I'm repeating that every week, but it's literally that like we are living that show live. We see that every week. I don't know if you've seen that, Rhyr or not. It's Yeah, I'm trying to get to that three comic club, son. I want a car that doors that open like this, not like this. I want doors open like this. ROI radio on the internet. Do I have to have watched the show to understand? requirement like really so I fundamentally I have I have an issue with the fundamental of this product like the premise of this product it's very similar to rabbit R1 if you remember that or the human AI pin uh the idea is that these companies are building an external device a hardware and they are putting some AI on and that supposed to do some work that that can't be done somewhere else and you therefore you need to buy their physical product and I don't get that idea because we have a smartphone and our smartphones are much faster much better from every perspective uh the smartphone is better so I don't get it like why would you wear as you said like why would you wear this big head it's not even a headset what that big big thing in your ear.

And why does it need to be a physical like big product on your ear? Um, if it's not just for branding and to, you know, I mean, have a hard time sticking in your ear, let alone some big like thing like, you know, this makes sense in a studio. I'm here trying to get good audio. I'm trying to isolate everything like, okay, but I like unless I'm flying, I never wear these out in public, you know? Um, and you can see they're pretty beat up. like these things have have seen better days, you know, but um I just don't think like Kabar said, I I like I don't want to car I don't want to carry my phone, let alone like a third device.

Like I already have a hard enough time. Keys, wallet, cell phone, that's it. I got all that's my routine. Nothing else is going to join that routine, you know? Like the AirPods sometimes come with me if I'm like going on a walk or something. But very very rarely am I like taking more things with me or looking to have like some extra device that then has to talk to my phone to be effective. It's like come on what are you actually doing here? So what what they are trying to do to to understand it from their perspective as well they are trying to um appear more in social media and get people talking about them.

That's the reason they are going after a physical product like the AI pin that looked like crazy that there's a project a projector like projecting um like kind of like a display on your hand that is very useless like you cannot even like do you know your passwords you you're going to log in in your accounts with that thing no that's not going to happen or with uh rabbit R1 like very orange um from what's it call like the engine the the the teen engineering uh company. Yeah, teenage engineering. Yeah. Yeah, teenage engineering. They were those things were all dead on arrival anyway. You know, like they're just they made a splash and then kind of like Apple Vision Pro, like people just got hyped up for a week and then it was over, you know?

I'm I'm going to be like I am one of these people though that just want this everpresent AI because like I hate getting out my phone and I would love I do it around the kitchen like if I could just ask to message someone or like do this or what how what is that and how do I do this? I'm constantly asking questions in my head. So I want something to like just be around me. I just don't want it to be a hockey thing on on the side of my head and I don't want it to be noticeable and in, you know, unintrusive. Maybe it's like a like a pin or But people already have houses full of Alexas or Apple devices or phones or iPads or laptops or like your TV has microphones in it.

Like there's no shortage of microphones around you. So um No, there is something better. Neurolink. Yeah, sure. So yeah, you're going to get that implemented. We're probably a decade away from that being any kind of mainstream though, you know. But I agree like all roads lead to just plugging into the Matrix directly. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean it's a it's a it's a bit of a sneaky thing. I don't know what how much of it is true or you know how much crossover there is, but ultimately they've been taken uh down uh while this dispute is taking place over the name specifically. But there are mentions by Sam of a similar they'll win the acquisition will happen now the check will be insignificant you know the other thing is like I don't think Johnny Eyes is like you know he had his moment like you know it's very rare it's it's like when you hit when you drop that killer you know single album and you like had your heyday and then they try to like do the comeback tour you know it's like it's never going to be the same just somebody else common place thing somebody else is going to do the thing you know it's not going to be some reboot um almost almost ever I just can't imagine like if I had to bet money I would never I wouldn't bet on a reboot.

I'd bet on some obscure startup coming out of the blue and doing something that you know a big company wouldn't even be thinking about or attempting you know. H um speaking of which, the next story is uh one of yours, Rama, that that uh is a favorite tool of ours. And in fact, probably because I'm logged into mine. But um Rep. Yeah, I'm about to I'm about to just quit everything I do and just only start tweeting about Replet. Every time I tweet about Replet, it goes viral. Yeah. Yeah. It's Yeah. just made this announcement um you know going from 10 million to 100 million ARR which is wild uh in the last 6 months you know so the company's been around for 10 years and in the last six months they go from 10 million to 100 million um I mean I remember when I was like doing web flow stuff in 2019 I think I found out about Replet and um it was just like a collaborative IDE they weren't you know they definitely weren't doing this agentic stuff and just in the last few months it's just gotten really good it's wild.

Um, it's so good. Like I think I So it was just an a collaborative IDE before it like when they introduced the vibe stuff like this year or something. Yeah, I think that's when I've heard about it about six, five months ago. They started releasing like some basic agentic stuff and I tinkered with it and I was like, okay, this is kind of interesting. You know, I can see it's trying. And then a couple months later I tried it again. I was like, oh, this is like good. Um, and it's just gotten like really good since then. It's not perfect. You know, it's you're not going to build, you know, like the cutting edge craziest new stuff with it.

But for most of what like people are doing with no code tools and websites and simple web apps and CRUD apps and things like that, like um yeah, super powerful. I've built some really interesting things with it. I um I do think it's in a league of its own though because a lot of like lovable bolt uh even vzero they don't have their own like they they want you to use superb base and they want you to use stripe and they want you to use clerk and all these separate tools whereas um replet it has its own built-in all of these tools are all built in so from the initial prompt it it already knows what it's capable of and we'll will build those things in whereas all the other tools I feel like they just they they mock all that data Um, and I remember I remember like a few months ago I tried it beginning of the year and it was great.

And then all of a sudden the designs looked incredible. Like the actual design of it looked good. You again going back to what you say though, there's still always going to be these prototyping tools. You're not going to get, you know, crazy ass designs coming out of this stuff, but the design is nice, usable. Um well well the thing that I don't I don't think most people think about when it comes to Replet is um you know since they've been around for so long the product is very mature and because it was um not only a collaborative IDE but they had this like um oneclick deployment you know they have the the backend infrastructure they have a lot of security things that like other folks aren't thinking about and so the way they manage their secrets and um environmental variables uh is very interesting.

I see a lot of the other companies now trying to copy that. um you know the the integration with neon the backend databases that basically it's a you know Postgress database and the thing speaks SQL and you can just talk natively like again I I saw somebody uh just recently tweeting about um you know superbase you know it needing to be a little less technical um and like you said yeah having it all integrated having the agent being able to talk to everything natively there's other integrations you can bring in um there's a preview live in the pane like between the agent and the assistant It's just it's just better than everything else out there like uh Bolt and Lovable like they're all they're great products and I've I've seen some interesting things built with them.

But um as far as like usable fully functional like not just a pretty front end or not just a you know little web you know skin like if you want real functionality uh yeah Replet's the one for sure. Um, have you are you have you got any are you earning any revenue from anything you built with Replet or are you just still tinkering and figuring out? We built a portal for our like local community. So, I run a local tech meetup with uh a few friends and um we have had a lot of success with the meetup and now we're selling memberships and doing all sorts of stuff and so like the app itself is not generating revenue but we are like running funds through a replet um site and um it's connected to the Luma API.

So, we manage all of our events with Luma which is a great calendar app. Uh and so we have the Luma API basically as our source of truth that handles all the membership stuff and then we built with Replet a uh like a member portal that basically takes the Luma API as the base level lets people kind of claim their profiles so it has all their attendance records and then now we can post and add the events. People can RSVP. Um, before we just had a web flow site and so like as people dropped their email in that went to ConvertKit and then from there we had to like figure out how to sync that with Luma and it was like I don't know we had two different sets of data.

So like now we've kind of unified everything. It's just all the other admins of our group can now see the data in the back end. So it's not like some blackbox and convert kit or some other tool that they don't have access to. They can kind of see membership and revenue and everything. So, it's it's been a um again, it's not like transformational, but it's super cool for us to have something like that that's custom. It's native to our needs specifically, and that's a big win, I think, just generally. Yeah, without without spoiling the surprise, I think there there'll be discussion later on, which I'm going it's happening internally in my head. The ability to build your own apps rather than going with off-the-shelf solutions is going to be huge in the next few years.

and uh to a scary degree that you know anyway I won't ruin the spies but yeah that's great to see that you've just you've identified something you need you can build it with and it's obviously holding its own with um with replet so that's most of what I'm using it for is just like little internal tools or little things that you know I've wanted to do or things that I want to experiment with that you know like would be crazy to hire a developer for or super expensive or whatever and now I can just tinker with it and it doesn't have to be production grade it's just instead of going to make or zap year or something for a little automation, I'm like maybe this thing will do it and it's exactly what I want rather than, you know, some cobbled together solution.

Yeah. Yeah. It's cool, right? Well, we'll go to a quick break with our friends over at Flowbase and we'll be back in just a minute. Support for this episode comes from Flowbase. If you are building in Web Flow, Framer, or Figma, Flowbase can help you build much faster. With over 4,000 components to choose from, you have a huge variety of wireframes and super clean, nicely designed sections that you can put together by just simply copy pasting them to your project. Over 15,000 icons as well, over a,000 illustrations. They also have a super helpful Web Flow app called Boosters. With boosters, you can add things like sliders and mares and countups to your project with a few clicks and without any coding.

So yeah, big thanks to Flowbase for supporting the show. If you want to try them out, go head to flowbase.co. And just for you guys, I want to show discount command flowbase all capitals for 20% off any plan. This is a limited offer, so get in there early. All right, that's it. Let's continue with the show. There you go. Cheers. Damn, y'all are legit. Legit. Yeah, I've boosted the audio cuz we was all coming through a bit quiet so I might have to turn that down a little bit. But yeah, um from one end of the spectrum to the complete other is the Gemini CLI, which actually went through a little bit of drama of itself.

Like I think they accidentally launched it far sooner than they they planned to. um as you can see from this tweet here, but within a few hours they actually launched the uh the actual version of this. Have you seen this Rhyma? Have you had a I mean are you in the CLI world? A little bit. I I don't know like I think um you know there's all levels of folks that need tools and lots of developers only live in like the command line you know so very technical folks folks who are just kind of like speaking real code they kind of want to be in the guts of these things so I think that's who these are for I think you know a lot of times like I I don't know why stick to that UI other than to meet those developers exactly where they are.

So that's what I got to imagine they're going after. Yeah. I mean, I would combine this and I keep on mentioning warp is just the tool of that I'm loving at the moment. But this this uh it's a convenience thing and this keeps on popping up through our like um through every episode of like it's just nice to stay in one place and not have to move around like deer the browser could be a place that you do that and that's where you've been finding a lot of success, Gabbaza. But um I know what you mean. I think there's a snobbery that comes with it because I was using um Claude and I just felt like a I don't know I was like plugged into the matrix or something but I mean but there's a snobbery that comes with developers like some of the most arrogant people I've ever met in my life you know like they just we're smarter than you can do all the things we're never wrong like obviously you know and so and and there's a whole stigma in the developer community of like they kind of have to suffer for it to be you know like proper like you're not a real developer unless unless you're like doing it all from scratch, you know?

And so it's like I don't know, get honestly. Like some I feel like the the people who were making horseshoes for a long time probably thought the same thing like you can only heat the fire with this billows and if you're not sweating then the fire's not hot enough. And the dude just drove by in the you know in the new whip and the Henry Ford talking about all right y'all keep making the horseshoes you know like whatever. Yeah. Yeah. I think that again I think that will become way more true than ever as we uh as we as we build more apps. I mean u and tools just get easier and easier to to use them.

But um but I mean you know I think the the interesting thing with this is the offering that they're basically giving away. I think I watched um Theo's video like he did the maths on this where he's they're just giving away hundreds and hundreds of dollars of free usage because you've got here you've got um 60 model requests per set uh per minute. I mean Jesus Christ doing that. Google they can't let you know they gave you Gmail and they gave you the Google Docs and like they can't miss this. They just got to give away the house. They know how that game is played. All they want is you using this so they can suck up all your code and they can learn how you, you know, solve problems and then they can be the the god of AI again.

Like that's that's all they care about. They don't care about making money with this. They don't need to make money on any anything related to this. You know, they got so much cash coming in. So they just want to corner they just want to corner the market and they have a massive developer audience and they know those folks like live in the command line. So they're like, "Hey, forget about all these other tools. like just come play in the command line and you know we got it for you. So they did they have released uh it somewhere around here. You can here we go. Here it is. So you can bring it into cursor and whatever but it's uh it's not much of a stepping stone away from the the command line.

Um but it just I mean this raises all sorts of questions about like you know um how much d well they're obviously stealing data and things like that but we we've spoken recently haven't we kaza about why we hate why we hate Facebook and we don't hate Google and what was it you said something who doesn't hate Google well I said well we hate Google less than we hate Facebook the reason being is Facebook is not giving back to the humanity uh anything useful they are just giving you Well, they're trying with Llama now. You know, Mark Mark Mark had his like moment, you know, and he's like trying to be the cool kid now.

So, they're trying, you know, he's trying to change that perception, but yeah. Uh I I I don't think he's finding like a lot of luck with this. But the idea was that uh we don't hate Google as much uh because they are giving back. For example, with YouTube and a bunch of other free stuff they have. they're at least doing something useful uh more useful than you know Facebook and Instagram. I think the reason people hate Facebook is because it was a like it was a bait and switch. You know, Google, we always kind of knew like, okay, Gmail, they got your Gmails. And YouTube had value proposition because like it was always a a creators kind of hub.

Facebook made this proposition of build your audience with us. We'll help you reach your audience. And you know, like that's a social network that you have. And then they flipped the whole script on that and they turned your audience. They they started holding your audience hostage. And then we found out that they were doing all these psychological and emotional experiments with advertising. And it it just became like, you know, kind of like, ooh, what are you doing over there? Right. And it it was the first time you'd seen that type of thing. And I I don't think Google as much as like as whatever you can think about, you know, they got all the data and the privacy.

Like you go to Google and you search for something and they give you an ad, you kind of know that's the exchange. You know, we didn't expect that was going to be the value exchange on Facebook is that they were basically going to spy on us, our social lives, and then exploit that for advertising revenue. And I think that's got more to do with why people, you know, hate Facebook versus Google at scale. I think I agree. And that's what I mean by, you know, giving you Facebook. They don't give you anything like really that valuable. And even the connections that they give you, you know, the connections that you make with your friends, they are exploiting that by, you know, knowing everything about you and selling the data.

on Google's end at least for example on YouTube they are sharing the revenue with the creators uh on Facebook you and Facebook and Instagram you make videos you make uh content and they don't even share anything with you so they are taking and taking and taking uh where Google is giving something back even in terms of like search as you said they show you ads but also they show you search results yeah I I I think we spent too much time defending Google they're they're they're all terrible. They're all terrible. Yeah. I I was think like I I built a website in Replet of course um called I really hate AI and the responses I get because basically I'm trying to learn why people hate AI because I'm just fully in on it.

But I do want to see the other side. A lot of people basically use exactly what you've just said about what Facebook did. Like no one expected social media, simple little social media where you connect with your friends and share stupid little videos and pictures. How that just turned around into this huge data mining um what would you even call it? Just a horrendous like thing. I we haven't seen it yet, but I think everyone's people are primed to like well what are they doing as all this with all this AI data AI open AI? Go on. Sorry. I was just going to say Facebook was the first real use case for AI. That algorithm was all AI, right?

Like they Yeah, that was before GPT, before any of this stuff, like all these social algorithms were using AI to kind of create this social feed that you know is just catered for you. And now Google's using that type of stuff to to fix search results. Like there's all sorts of uh quantitative data now that Google is like shifting search results specifically based on like political ideologies. um especially in the COVID era uh they were exposed for a lot of that stuff and so yeah I think um you know we think like we're just starting to see AI break through the surface kind of as mainstream for consumer products but a lot of this machine learning and algorithmic stuff has been you know behind the scenes for a lot of these companies for a while um and yeah it's for sure advancing at a scale that you know I don't think any of us really comprehend right now but um no yeah um uh I mean like even literally Just before we went live, I think um Sam Alman's come out come out saying a bunch of bunch of stuff with regards to wow.

I mean, they've been saying it for ages how AI is is going to be taking jobs. It's going to be, you know, something we need to be conscious of. And I I I actually don't think they themselves know how much it's going to affect their own um you know, their own uh businesses and stuff because we're we're slowly we're slowly removing ourselves from the equation. Um, which brings us on to the next uh topic which I don't know whether I'm making a mountain out of a molehill with this one but it's it definitely solidifying some things to me. So uh and this isn't new. So uh Google studio has this it's this idea that they have a canvas whereas anthropic released this idea of artifacts and it is maybe I can even share the app itself because I have it here.

It's this idea that your it's applications on just in time application creation. Okay. So if I present my I'll do I'll do window um just in time application creation where you these are some examples they've got here. You can just build an application to give you flash cards. It build an application to where was the one I saw the PRD maker or something like that. I do think I I can totally see a world here and and this is what all they've launched, right? This is the news, right? We can move on to the next subject right now. But this realistically this is this is me looking into the future and saying I don't think people will just be building their own tools.

It's what we spoke about when you know you're using Replet and you're building and and building your own tools and things like that. I think you as a technical person, this is where we're at right now. But I don't think it will be long until your accountant is coming in and just building a quick little app in in just in time sort of delivery to give them a bunch of data that they want and to be able to manipulate it. Maybe it's a pie chart that does this and they want to be able to u cross reference that data or something like that. So whilst on the surface this looks like a fun little way to make apps, we're slowly getting to a point I feel like where we we just the software development is not necessary anymore.

Like because the everyday person is building their own pieces of software as they need it and then it's discarded. I think even even the article um even uses a word to to describe that, but they just discard it after they're done with it because they don't need the app anymore. So, I think this brings into the the equation of just a crazy um future where I'm I haven't got a job. No one's going to need me because building their own apps. I don't think that's true at all. I think what's going to happen is more and more people are going to become technically capable and know how to deal with these things, at least in the short term.

Uh what you're what you're saying might be true 20 years out, right? Mhm. Like this job doomerism this like all these white collar jobs or all these things you know like maybe you know like at some point down the road but I think right now what we're seeing is more and more people are actually being exposed to the role of software developer and taking their problem solving skills or real world skills and saying now I have the capabilities of solving these problems with software without spending $100,000 you know hiring some team and trying to go through process and build a thing that's like has to be viable for millions and millions of users for it to be profitable.

No, I I could build something in a weekend that's just useful for 10 people. Okay, cool. You know, um and so I think like think about how many people like when cameras just started being on your phone like became videographers, right? like we like we had we got more media than less, you know, like the diversity of media escalated, you know, and now you can see Hollywood's struggling to keep up. But you're seeing independent creators and all these like little, you know, pocket creators just like sometimes I go on YouTube and I see some video and I'm like, "Oh, this is interesting." And I'm like, "Holy 40 million views." Like what? Like what world am I missing out?

And then you go to the channel and like every one of their videos has that level of viewership and you're like, "Holy shit." Right? Right. And so like there's all these little pockets of things that are just going to flourish and and be created that will counterbalance the displacement of jobs and the dumerism and you know there's so many things that are going to shake out. Like I I I just I'm not I'm I'm a very optimistic person in some of this. Like I do think disruption is coming, but I I don't think um you know I'm not one of those like pessimistic it's going to ruin all the jobs and everyone's going to be like I don't know destitute or something like that.

I just don't think that like the world doesn't work if that's true. You know we have bigger problems. Yeah. just chaos. Chaos. Yeah. If if most people get their sense of purpose from doing some kind of productive thing in life, right? And the the damn shame of it is that most people end up in in the current world having to do some they don't want to do just to just to live. So imagine could we get to a place where more people can just do things they're interested in or chase their passions because they don't have to worry about filling in spreadsheets or doing like TPS reports, you know? So like I don't know that's what I think and maybe that's like an ide ideological view you know like maybe that's not a realistic view but if you take people's ability to earn or to have purpose through work or like and you just say well you don't need to do those things and we're just going to give everybody UBI and blah blah blah you're going to end up with like chaos across all of society you know and you already have people that feel like you know they're not plugged into the economic system and if you do that more and you like remove the ability for people to kind improve their status in life by working hard or being innovative or being entrepreneurial.

Like you're just going to create more chaos than you could ever imagine. Yeah. I I suppose I've lost sight of my original like my optimism. You've just reminded me like that optimism that I brought to these discussions which is often like well it's just a leg up. It's just another leg up that we have. then we're always going to try and it's just given us that extra little lift to then think more broadly or bigger or or we shape it in a in a way it's going to allow us to do things that we didn't do before. You know, going again going right back to the the car analogy, the horse car analogy or you know the farming analogy and all that kind of stuff.

So um it you're right, it will be interesting. Um, and I I guess I I need to be more excited about what that could do for me in my future as a as a software engineer and all those. And I'm not saying industries won't be disrupted or lots of people won't have to like change skills or find new things or you know like or or that there won't just be total like if you think about the dot boom and bus cycle, everyone knew the internet was going to be like a tremendous asset to the world in the late 90s into the early 2000s. And then there was this whole like economic cycle of like it's all got to shake out, right?

So everyone's betting and making all these crazy bets on these tech companies and all these dot companies and like you know this one and that one and like big you like just crazy returns kind of like we're seeing with some of these AI valuations and then all of a sudden the bottom fell out and sure the internet still became the internet and here we are 20 years later you know with all these cool tools having this conversation but there was a big shakeout between then and now and we haven't had that shakeout in the AI world and it's for sure coming right like whether whether it's caused by technology or whether it's caused by some geopolitical thing or whether or it's caused by some larger economic implications that like you know like there's all sorts of geopolitical stuff happening that could cause ripples in all these industries.

So I think there will be some kind of major shakeout between here and there that is going to be more important. I was just listening to a Peter Teal and uh interview with somebody else and they were saying that maybe intelligence isn't our problem. You know like is is is more intelligence really the problem or are there other social systems at play? Are there other economic systems at play? Are there other things that are like stopping us from, you know, succeeding? Because if you think about it, it's not always the smartest person in the room that is the most successful, right? A lot of times smart people complicate things and they get in their own way because they think too much about stuff and then it's some, you know, I don't want to say dumb, but it's like some naive person that's like, "Just do it."

You know, and then they then they do it, they're like, "Oh, hey, look at that." Right? And so it's not always it's not always intelligence that's the answer, right? It's not always like throwing more intelligence at it. So it's like maybe that's not the problem at scale. like AI is intelligence, but like does that really mean at scale that's going to solve all the problems? So, I think socially and and from a community standpoint and like we've got a lot of other things to figure out as a society, as you know, modern people living in this world that sure AI is going to complicate, but it's not the only problem here. You know, it's not the only variable in the in the in the mix.

Yeah. It's like it's almost like because I said last week, I think it was like I don't value intelligence in in that um maybe intelligence will just not be something we care too much about because it's being commoditized by AI. And I guess my interpretation of what you're saying is then that will once intelligence is out the way once that thinking that maybe that will give life or or give room to think about quote unquote real issues or something like this. uh whether it be social, whether it be economical or something like that. So, um yeah, I did a talk a couple years ago in Buenositis actually. Um and I've been thinking about it recently cuz I I I should I don't think it's like on the web anywhere, but I I I should probably resurrect it.

And the idea of the talk was um when technology fades. And we have these moments going all the way back to like the beginning of humanity that like we have these transformational technologies. And by that I'm talking about like the advent of fire or agriculture or you know like electricity, right? I'm not talking about like a little widget. I'm talking about like these fundamental changes in like society. Electricity is probably the most recent current one that I can think about. The internet is probably in the same realm. But like you know when Edison when when we first had electricity when Edison and and Tesla are like trying to figure out like how are we going to power homes and what's going to be the light bulb and is it AC versus DC and like we're just thinking about this stuff like for a long time you could see like oh that's cool did you see the light bulb and then they had these world fairs and everybody's looking at like oh my god the light in the city is electrified but it was decades before like every house you just walked in and you flipped a switch and you're like oh hey electricity look and now we take it for granted you walk into every building in a in the in the modern world and you just expect to be able to plug things in and have electricity.

You don't even think about this magnificent thing that is like and and the power grid is a is a big deal, right? Like all these things are a big deal. And so it's a long time between the advent of the technology and when it fades, right? Same thing with fire and like you know for a long time harnessing fire was a big deal, but now like you just go and heat something up in the microwave or on the oven or on the stove or you can strike a match and you have fire, right? Like we just take it for granted now. And so we're in the like holy phase of AI, you know? But in five years, in 10 years, in 20 years, whatever it becomes, when you just when it just disappears and like you said, Samuel earlier, you don't need a device.

It's just everywhere. It's just it's it's just there like electricity. What happens then? We still have social issues. We still have like we still have to figure out how to like live in a community. We still have to figure out how to like generate food and keep the infrastructure and like make sure that we're not fighting in the streets and that people have like purpose in their lives. And so like AI and technology is not going to solve those things. like they're tools inside of this world that we live in, but like there's bigger problems fundamentally at a social layer that need to be solved that like these things can either amplify or tear down.

And I think that's like the conversation that very few people are having around the space is like what happens when this technology fades and it's just ubiquitous and we're still here having to figure out how to live with each other and you know we don't have a shared message, right? There's no shared story that's bigger than us that you know that community in my mind matters more and story matters and like how we interact with each other like that all matters more than the tooling but the tooling is how we do those things right so like yeah yeah the the IRL thing the community aspect is is is huge because I think we are becoming more insular and less social as a community like I was I was just even thinking about it today like It's I I sort of I'm so focused on work right now.

I'm almost losing the ability to speak to people and actually have comm conversations with people because the internet is a weird place. Like people talk like no one talks like they do as they write in an email. Like I don't know why we've developed this language, this way of talking in emails, but that's how it is. It's not real. And the internet is the same sort of thing. We use words, we use phrases, we we reference things that we wouldn't necessarily do in real life because we're dealing with well, yeah, human emotion and stuff like that. So, um, we are, and I'm sure there's some documentaries out there about becoming lonelier as as humanity. And, um, with with AI, uh, I have no need to ask anybody anything even from an emotional support standpoint at the moment, you know.

Yeah. Well, yeah. The problem is the AI can't hug you and when your car breaks down the AI can't come tow you, you know, and like when you're lonely, the AI can't come watch a movie with you and sit next to the couch on you and like, you know, so like again I and I think what we're going to see were uh we had a little local AI meet up last night. Um and we were talking about trends and people were talking about all these different trends and I said, "Well, here's a trend that I don't think anybody's talking about and that's the trend towards small intimate real world connections again." Right? And if you think about like the first layer of the internet and these networks that we've built, it's been about build the biggest network you can, you know, talk like go as viral as you can, generate as much attention as you can, which is super great.

But when AI starts getting better at that and like now these big channels are just full of like slop, well, what are you going to want? You're going to want to know that like the people I'm talking to in this network are human, right? Like what sense would this conversation make if I'm talking to two bots and it's just me like talking to myself in a room? There's no value there, right? At least from a like a human emotional connection value. And so like there's going to be a trend of people moving towards smaller groups, private systems, networks where like it's it's real people. Like I know there's no bots in here because it's only 20 people and I know all 20 of those people, you know, and so that doesn't mean that they can't create stuff or bring stuff from the outside, but there's going to be these new groups that start acting as filters across all of this and that's going to be very important and I think those will be very um in high demand from a value standpoint.

there's lots going to be lots of business in building those types of networks and also licensing the intellectual output of those networks out for AIs or for people to then access and know like hey this is those are going to be the new basically like centers of trust online like what media used to be right what journalism used to be it's like these groups it's like hey these 50 people are like the leaders in this one industry here's what they're coming to consensus on in real time that they think is interesting and that might be a feed that people will trust because I know those folks like the value of that network is not advertising or being hyperbolic.

It's in like using the tools in the most effective way possible, right? And so I think those types of groups and they look like right now those types of group looks like b uh industry associations, you know, they look like business associations, they look like chambers of commerce, they look like um you know networking groups. Um and so these types of things exist in the real world, but they don't really exist in the digital world. And the incentives in those groups is to create value inside of a group, but keep the value inside that network. Whereas the value of social media is to build value on the network and then let the the network kind of abstract that and let it flow out at scale.

And so I think we're going to see a reversal of that where people are going to want to capture the value of those networks and the relationship that they have. And it's very difficult to do that with the incentive structures that you know operate on X or Tik Tok or YouTube or any of those things. You're doing quite well, Kabaza, on your you you you've spoken to me before about what's that little game thing where you walk around and you just walk into rooms with people. Um town, gather town, that's the one. Aren't you using like a combination of these things? I mean, uh to to try and stay community driven and and all the rest of it.

Well, for online stuff, I think Gather Town, um, they had a very great idea, but I think they never took off. Um, I think the closest to Gather Town is Discord. Visually, it's not the same, but functionwise, it's very similar. So, the the way I see it at dis you have your Discord that is your entire world in in that sense, and then you have different discord servers. These are neighborhoods quite literally and in each neighborhood there are different different channels and uh like with different categories. So each neighborhood has houses and in each house so in each uh channel category you have different rooms and they are called rooms like they are voice rooms um and you just join them.

It's like you go to a neighborhood, you go to a house that you want, and then you join people in a certain room talking about a certain thing. And that's how we actually use Discord. Like I can check my Discord and I can see where are my friends and they are not in the same server. They are all across different servers and I know that server if they are there they are with that group of people and they do some gaming and I know even the vibe of that server and then if they are on my server they talk about something else and even for work we have that for work we have this open space thing where we have a basically a category for work and people can go there co-work like channels for like kind of like cave Like so you go there, you mute yourself, you you just sit there and work.

It it basically signals that hey, imagine like a real world, like a real um house. Somebody in a room sitting with headphones on, maybe even with a sticker on their back saying like, "Do not disrupt me. It's just I'm sitting and working." But you see them there working. And if you need to tap on their shoulders, you can do this. And in Discord, it's just literally joining the room and maybe shooting them a message. And if they don't answer you, that means they are uh too busy to answer you. Because if they go AFK, meaning that they no longer actively like sit at their computer, they are going to be moved to a separate room that is AFK away from keyboard.

that's like very very clear who is actively sitting who is like not there. So I really like that idea. I live in that uh world. It's like my daytoday life actually uh from the time that I wake up to the time I sleep. I check my discord regularly and I spend at least I don't know probably 10 hours a day in one of these neighborhoods in one of these rooms sitting with people like we have a place to I know if I go there we will talk philosophy I know that it's it's like there is not a written rule but it's kind of like the vibe of that place and if I and the people who are there and the people who know that place and are not interested in philosophy they obviously don't join or like you know they are not active.

So these communities shape um and this all exist you know um it it's kind of like enables us to connect even though we cannot like in a physical world because like you know everybody's living in a different country but uh yeah it's quite fascinating and I I love it. I just wish that it had maybe a mode where you could have it like gather town, like Discord, but maybe with like a little bit more, you know, walking to these neighborhoods, like a UI like that, but it's not necessary because the that fades out after like you use Gather Town like at the first like one hour or so, it's really fun, but after that it becomes a bit annoying because then you have to quite literally walk up to people then you notice oh I don't want to walk like 20 seconds to go to that person you you literally have to right and then people get lost in the rooms because they have to physically like in the world they have to find the on the map they have to find other desks and go so they they have this option to teleport so you see you find yourself actually using that functionality less uh like the normal typical like walking functionality and you see yourself just teleporting which becomes discord.

Yeah. Yeah. It's what's what's interesting to me is there's just two worlds forming. There's the world you just described which is people are online and they're working and doing like and lots of people do that remote workers lots of people who you know like I think spec specifically in like niche industries right so it's like if you're a web de developer specifically like in the web flow world like there's all these little communities that flourish for people to kind of connect and freelancers and I bet in like lots of different verticals there's those types of things where you kind of have these like digital worlds that are super robust but then you go out into like the physical world and those like those paradigms just don't exist, right?

Like that's a coffee shop or it's the the yoga studio or it's the you like those are the places where you have to like physically walk to the thing and then like maybe you're surrounded by a group and then there's a vibe that space this courtyard over here or the park over here. So, like what's interesting to me is that like I interact with lots of people in the physical in the physical world that don't don't do the digital thing, you know? It's like when I talk to them about some of this stuff and I talk to them about community or some of what you were saying like because I'm in Discord all the time too, you know, like just by default like my work is in there like the the people I interact with are but they're also in like WhatsApp and then on X like I spend way too much time on X, let's be real.

Um, and so all these little bubbles, but like it's so weird when I talk to my like real world friends. I I have air quotes, you can't see, real world friends. Like they don't get any of it. They're not in any of that. They don't like they don't spend any time in Discord or doing any of these things, you know? It's like there's two worlds. There's the people that kind of see this new matrix being built and they're kind of thriving in it. And then there's folks that don't even see this like parallel dimension, this like multiple like the multiverse is being born right now, you know, like we're building it. All these little worlds that we're building, you know, are real for the people who are in them.

And there's nothing more exciting than to like find yourself at a conference and then now you're in a big space with all these people that you've been interacting with in this like virtual space for a long time that you know like now it's now it's real like hey I met you in the real world and now we ate together. You know, it's like there's these there's these bridges between this digital space and the online space that like I I don't know. And I think more and more things are going to move digital, right? You watch Ready Player One, you see that where things are headed. You you know, like I don't know. That's going to be an interesting thing is to see how these two worlds merge, like how the real world and the digital world kind of come together.

You've seen uh the the Vision OS update as well probably um previously. you could just use it as solo but now they are adding some functionalities to use it with other people and also the avatar is getting better and more realistic. Uh I'm not saying that it that at some point people will prefer this to real world and what I described with discord it's not like I prefer it to real world quite lit actually if I had the option to choose to have my people in a studio close to me in the city instead of Discord I would 100% do it like no like no second thought like obviously I would I would love to do that maybe some point in the future Actually, I want to do that.

That's one of my goals. Maybe in five years to have my own studio with like a a big team of people that I like working with physically there. But right now that's that's not possible. Sure. Uh and even with my friends uh around people that I work with uh they they also like to travel and they they go to different places. So even though some of them live in this the same city as I live, they are not here all the time actually. They are like traveling a lot because they want to see the world and you know work at the same time too. This court is for us bridging that gap. And it's not like the reason it's so radical to me, the reason it's so different from any other tool is that what I described like these houses and rooms that don't need um they are not separated.

They are not disconnected. Everything is just there. It looks like a physical space being there and you can just join them without, you know, talking to people for like, you know, you invite people. Yeah. They're just always on the rooms. Yeah. You just you show up and it's there. And even like I have it open on another monitor even on there is a list on Discord where you see where people um are like the people that you have in that group. Are they online? And if they are online, where are they? And they have a status. So you could also see, oh, that person is playing games and that person is working, right? And a lot of this is automatic.

That's why I really like it. With a glance, I see where people Yeah, we're back. Had a little had a little glitch there. Glitch there. The glitch in the m the matrix heard us talking about it. So we had to split into a now now we're in two parallel universes. I got disconnected from this the studio. So if it if it were real this would not have happened. But well I mean I'll move on to the next article because I think this all ties in together. Have you seen this recent study on if it loads antist getting dumb? Is it getting done? Oh, yeah. Have you I don't need any help with that, y'all. Well, they said don't say that, right?

I think No, it's part of the rules. It's part of the rules. Don't say you get dumb. It's just Yeah, it's What is it? What do you They explored three groups of people, right? Brain only, LLM, and search engine. And asked them to write these essays, right? whatever the essay was about, I'm not too sure. Um, and then on the fourth session, they did the old um the switcheroo and got the people who were um brain only to do LLM and then LLM only to do brain only kind of assessment of their um their write up whatever it is they wrote. Uh and and basically they they monitored their brains during the uh where is it now?

Uh, they monitor their brains using the electro sephilography. We're not seeing your screen, just a heads up. I see the screen. Oh, okay. Maybe it's just me. Streamyard, come on. Get get it on. Get it on. Um, where are you? Yeah. All right, cool. Because I was going to say if you're looking on YouTube and you can't see on YouTube, then that's different. Um, yeah. EEG to like assess what's going on basically. And um the brain only obviously exhibit the strongest um distributed networks amongst their brain and all this sort of stuff. Whereas basically the LLM people just switched off um and the the um the self-reported ownership of like basically do I know what the hell that I wrote about?

Again, as you can imagine, the LLM people are weren't just weren't there. you know they they couldn't they couldn't recall what they had learned they couldn't really recall what they had written uh things like that whereas obviously the brain only people and I don't necessarily think this is rocket science I think this is this is expected I mean all this is the same story we talk about time and time again when it comes to you know when you if you write something down it's going to have a different impact than if you just try and memorize it all the rest of it but it's just applied in the current context of M&M's That's good. Yeah.

I think the also the goal uh I'm I'm not sure if the goal is I I'm not connecting with this uh because what what is the point of writing an essay? I know the the point here is you know for the study but in real life you probably you should have some interest in what you're doing and you're writing an essay about other if you don't have that it doesn't matter like what your brain activity is. It quite literally it doesn't matter like you you're writing something that previously maybe you could just copy paste it from different sources at at the end you would have a lower quality essay or something you know just pretty bad but now with LLMs it's average so the output here they are asking for something like an there's an objective and my problem with this study is that I feel like the objective doesn't really matter At the end, what matters is what you're trying to do and how you're going to do it doesn't really matter anymore.

Especially this is just the same. This is the calculator all over again. Yeah. Right. Remember in school and they're like you can't use a calculator cuz you're not going to have this, you know, like you're not be able to have it all the time. It's like, well, now I got it all the time and I don't, you know, like and so yet. Did people forget their multiplications tables? Sure. Was it more important to memorize your multiplication tables a long time ago? Sure. Do I still need multiplication sometimes? Yeah. Okay. You know, but I can also like use the thing. And same thing with like again I think we're headed towards a world where you're just going to be able to do other you know?

Maybe you need to write an essay, but like maybe you don't need to write an essay, you know? Like maybe you could just read somebody else's essay or you can have it aggregate something and now your brain power is freed up to do other things, you know? And so like I just think it's one of those like the skill set the shifts. We were talking yesterday in uh uh the flow walkers space and I brought up this old quote that like just resonates with me especially in this modern world. It's like we're ancient hardware running medieval software living in a modern world, right? And so our bodies are still like evolutionarily tuned for a totally different world than the one we live in right now.

And our social structures, the cues that we take socially are built hundreds and hundreds of years ago, right? most of our social and cultural institutions and like religion and social norms and how we interact with each other like all that's kind of based off of the past and we haven't really figured out like what is the new role for humanity in this space when we have abundant intelligence or abundant resources here or there or like all these other things and so we're just going through this like shift of humanity where like we just don't really know and anybody who pretends that they know is like lying like I would be very cautious to listen to anything that person has to say because they probably have an agenda of some level.

Um, so I I think we're just in a phase where if you like just ask the LLM to write a thing and you don't like spending time thinking about it, like you said, if you're not interested in the subject, the essay is going to be trash. You know, this is going to be the this but again like if you're taking physical notes when you're writing and you're ingesting and you're interested in something, the brain still works, you know, and the brain's not going to like stop retaining knowledge that the person thinks is interesting. And so we're just going to have to find different ways to learn and be engaged and maybe less people are going to be writing essays in the future, right?

You're just going to be talking to Jarvis and hey, tell me about XYZ and this thing in your ear is going to be telling you everything you need to know. You don't need an essay, you know? Yeah, it it's um the level of compute to me that the way I'm trying to understand and also communicate it. It's the level of compute that is changing. Um the reason we have this discussion is because we the a lot of these companies are telling us these AIs are a substitute for intelligence but we're not sure about that and actually there are like a lot of people hard disagreeing with that. What we can agree with uh is that these LLMs are just um just computers just compute.

They do compute just like a calculator. They do it instead of with numbers they do it with words. And just the the same way that there is no need for a lot of you know mathematicians to sit around and you know perform complex calculations. There will be less people needed to to write some stuff like I I don't know like a lot of like writing and including code will be spe especially for simpler stuff won't we won't need it. It's just like a calculator. But do we still need mathematicians? Yes. Um, and do these things substitute for like actual intelligence so far? No, not really. As you said, Ryan, they are not going out to solving like real problems and they don't even know like what real problems are to to to begin with.

Like that's what these agentic uh you know companies are trying to get into. But I think we are quite far uh from that. I agree. I think we're orders of magnitude away from anything meaningful from an intelligence standpoint. That's why all these people that think like oh it's going to be AGI is like it's like no whatever the whatever this thing we're using it is a very impressive parlor trick. It is very impressive like autocomplete. Like it's a beautiful thing where it can take all this aggregate knowledge and kind of hone that and turn that into something useful for you. Like that's amazing, but there's nothing novel inside of there almost ever, right? And the things that are novel, for instance, if you look at like the Alpha Go when it beat like the the the Go game beat like the the top players in the world, it had trained on millions and millions of games and then it made like some novel move in that space that maybe a human didn't think about.

And so in that context, there's a little bit of novel learning, you know. Um, and then you're seeing also the same thing with like manufacturing where it's like a human might think about building a skeleton like this where the AI is like, "Hey, we can remove 80% of that material and it'll still be stable, right?" Like those are kind of novel insights. Those are things that like the AI is good at. And again, right now code because code is very deterministic. But when it comes to like writing a essay, you know, like it's just going to give you the average elomeration of like whatever the the the most people have said so far about this topic rather than like and most things that are interesting to read are from people who have a way higher than average outlook on something or intelligence about a specific topic and it's them kind of organized that information.

It's going to be a long time before these systems can kind of connect those dots. Even with the agentic stuff like most of the agentic stuff is just glorified like integramat you know make automations you know like most stuff that I see as like agents is really just like these complex automation flows right and so it's like the thing is not thinking it's just running through a process with a little bit of like you said compute like a little bit of intelligent compute inside of there but it's not yeah it's not solving real problems yet and I think it's a long way before that like like decades before that happens and not to forget The reason we are saying all of this is because I I feel like this is what this is what I definitely see in the community and I feel like a lot of people feel like this.

Um they feel threatened by a lot of these claims from these companies that our jobs will be gone and maybe it will happen but it's not yeah skill because of that. Try harder. Okay. If you're below average, if you're below average in what you do and you like what you do, do you really care? Well, if you're below average, then you know like find a way to get above average, you know, like and I not everybody can be above average because then you like you wouldn't have a distribution. So, yeah. Um, but I think the world is just like that. like not everyone has the same outcome for effort or what you know like there's always going to be unequal distributions.

The only thing we can make sure we do as this thing grows is that it doesn't skew the tables so far that let's say the first person that gets this thing, this is the real concern, right? Is that the first people that have this AGI? Like they're never going to tell us. You like Open AI would never come out and be like, "Oh, we've solved it." Like they're going to hack the entire stock market. They're going to extract billions and billions of dollars and then we're going to know like, "Hey, who's doing this? Oh, they must have figured something out." Like that's 100% how we're going to figure out AGI. Like nobody's ever going to develop this thing, solve super intelligence, and then like come out the next day and be like, "Hey, look at what we can do."

No, they're going to take and extract and build systems and build as much infrastructure as they can to make sure that they don't ever get unseated. And that's the concern is that like then you you you basically close the door for anyone to be able to compete. And so like that's the that's the real concern is that and and if and it doesn't matter if that happens five years from now or 20 years from now or 100 years from now. Like if that happens, the whole game has changed, you know. I I agree. And for people who might not connect with what you said, like an analogy for that would be if you find a a true gold mine, like an actual gold mine, would you sit there and sell shovels or just, you know, take the gold mine?

like if it's an actual like not imaginary you know you you don't go around and tell people hey I found this gold mine here come buy my shovel to you just take it and the same is true with AGI I feel like we are really far from that uh something that can yeah to to be called like actual like true AGI and once we get there if we get there. Probably some governments will use it to hack to I don't know. Sam said it's already here. I thought he was like he had suspicions. Obviously, he's just saying just if it was already here, they wouldn't be worried about dealing with Microsoft, you know, they would just have the AI handle that, you know.

Yeah. Um, if you have AGI, you can literally build any piece of software on demand. That That's the definition of AGI for me. The definition of AGI is that it it's it can be so smart that it can self-replicate. AGI is an AI that is smarter than all of us humans combined and it can self-replicate. It can do anything essentially. That is that has been the definition of AGI. And what I really dislike about what some Altman is doing, uh I'm quite disappointed in like what all these AI companies are doing is they are reducing that or like bringing down that definition that we had for AGI for decades. We always refer to it as um to AGI as you know the moment after the event horizon past the event horizon which we cannot see which we cannot tell.

So the event horizon is the the moment where you cannot predict, you know, after talking about singularity, right? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I Well, they keep moving it because Well, they're going to keep moving the needle because they're just not going to even hit it. Just bringing it down. They're like this is AGI. Yeah. Well, they're calling it super intelligence now. That's what you hear everyone saying. No, people are not saying AGI anymore. They're saying we've reached super intelligence, right? which allows them to make claims like that without actually having to answer the questions that you're talking about, which is, you know, where's God? Like, you know, if God exists, show him to me. Um, and no conquering look, no conquerors have ever, going back to your like gold mine thing, like have ever stumbled across a land and found diamonds and gold and wealth and then been like, "All right, I guess like we should just open this up like Disney Disneyland and let everyone in here, you know?"

It's like, "No, you build fortresses around it. you build walls, you know, like you you build a a strong military defense around, you know, like to to protect this thing and then you exploit it as far as you can regardless of the cost of human life and then you build a nation around that. Like that's how it's always played out and I don't think in the digital world it's going to play out any different. Scary stuff. Well, this is why open source matters. this is why, you know, like this is why, you know, like having this thing be that's the other like you go back to OpenAI and this idea of it being like a nonprofit and now it's, you know, a for-profit or they're trying to make it a for-profit entity and, you know, like there's there's really big and that's go back to the the games, the incentives, the the social structure underneath this thing is more important than the thing itself, right?

It's like it's like putting a gun in in the right hands, you know? You could protect the neighborhood or everyone could be dead, you know? And like that's what we're talking about here. We're talking about a society building a gun that has capabilities to do things that we don't understand. It's a weapon we don't understand yet. And imagine you find some tribe that hasn't had any kind of modern civilization and you just give them these types of weapons. They wouldn't know what to do with it, right? And so we don't know what to do with these things and we don't know like is it going to be for good or is it going to be for bad.

And I think that's like going back to uh I don't want to get super phil philosophical but like if you think about we the people in order to form a more perfect union this is like the founding of the United States basically was saying like we have to take individual responsibility if we want to have a free nation and on the internet you know we don't have that kind of compass everything we're still living in like a digital feudal state where we don't own anything so we can't really contribute and so we the creators in order to have a more perfect internet have to like find ways to make sure that these incentives align with us not just be, you know, organized to the winner or take all like win or take all can't be the the solution here.

Um, but I don't know how you stop that. Like I don't actually know how you interfere with those things. Um, I had a segue on to open open source then and then you brought the philosoph philosophical conversation into it. Should we uh you want to say something Kamaza or you should we move on? Yeah. Yeah. for time for time sake. Let's uh So anyway, going back to the It's fun. Like I I could talk about this forever. Like it's it goes into morals. It goes to philosophy. I I talk to my friends about this a lot and I'm quite passionate about it. It's it's interesting things that we don't know. We are quite literally figuring it out.

Uh everybody has their own opinion. Um and we are finding things out as we are moving forward. So interesting. But as you said, for the sake of the show, we can maybe we'll come back to it. Maybe we'll come back to it. But uh from a from a open- source perspective, the drama that was open code um back in the CLI world, I know this is this isn't going to be uh too uh too too insightful like the last two conversations, but basically the the drama that revolves around this this CLI. And I want to use this. I haven't I haven't had a chance to I've just downloaded it today because it does seem like it's doing a whole bunch of stuff.

Um you know um from a from a cost perspective is actually doing a lot of uh you know cost-saving things. But basically the story goes um the original uh creator of what was called uh term AI um uh what was his name? uh Huim created this nice uh terminal based uh coding interface brought on uh a guy called Dax who is on if I got I think Dax over here brought on Dax to work on the UI and also Adam brought on the UI and there was a bit of and and charm AI came in to basically poach the app because it was working so well. I would like some nice early shots of this application, but I don't actually have any.

And um uh Dax and Adam declined politely. Um but Hajim actually said yes to it. but sneakily kind of went behind their back uh took the code base with them even though Dax owned the name Open Code and has basically they've they've um got a hold of the original codebase, wiped Dax and Adam's contributions to this codebase as if they never existed. And you can see he's saying this here. Um, deleted GitHub comments and whatever. And Charm AI or I don't even know what they're they're called to be honest. Let's have a look. Um, what's his name? Oh, just Charm. Just Charm claiming that all none of this is uh none of this is true.

He's saying no comment history was deleted. We re reregistered blah blah blah. Um, so this is open-source drama that's happening at the moment. And uh this is the like I say this is the CEO who's basically just denying everything. And I think we've we've literally spoken about some sort of he said she said drama every single week on this show. Um whether it's the illusion of the illusion of thinking with the Apple thing saying that um what do you call it the uh that models don't think. Um it's just it's there's just so much drama going on in the world of uh of AI at the moment and I'm struggling to keep up. Winner version I know.

And then you you know we we're talking about um uh Zuckerberg as well just offering this hund00 million um signing bonus or something. I heard some pretty interesting like just maybe that's you know BS that it was like just trying to seed uh I like imagine if um yeah if if imagine if you try to swap and then you don't get the hundred million and then you're like oh you know like that was a lie and so you stay or like you feel like you're being underpaid like maybe you're underperforming or something. So it's like a lot of like you know maybe psychological warfare also being had in the in the game of like you know at that scale.

I mean I mean um four employees have left OpenAI for Zuck's dream trip. Sure. Sure. Here's why I think going back to the conquerors never going to give it up and this all out arms race that we're seeing. What I think hasn't been mentioned and I don't know if lots of people are thinking about is like blockchain and decentralized ownership of these networks. And you see are y'all familiar with uh Bellagi? Um I think I think that's the guy's name is Bellagi. He's like a Should I get this up behind the scenes? He's big on the um like this idea of a network state. And lots of people in the crypto world have this idea of like these big digital networks that will somehow shape the future just like kind of nations do now, right?

like some some physical nation, you know, like we have the United States or the United Kingdom or, you know, like Brazil, like you have chunks of land that, you know, um are nation states and he thinks he postulates that we'll have digital nation states, you know, these network states. Uh yeah, network state. There you go. The network state, right? Um, and so he talks a lot about this and I think, you know, this is where I think it gets really interesting because the whole internet as we know it right now runs off of a bunch of open source protocols. TCP IP, HTTPS, like all these things that like email, everything. It's like these decentralized open source technologies.

Um and so there's all sorts of people figuring out how do you distribute the incentives inside of these systems and build you know uh new sovereign digital nations and like all sorts of stuff that you know decentralizes and distributes the earning potential or the incentives around these systems so that you know it's not just a Google only type thing or an Apple only type thing or a Facebook like whoever it is that wins X or Tesla or whoever's you know like the players are Um, but then it comes down to again like connections and trust and how do you defend a digital network state, right? Like if it's just servers, how do you defend it if one of the countries that your servers are in says, "Hey, these don't exist anymore.

They're ours." You know, and so now the network in that state just dies. And so maybe the rest of the network lives, but now everybody that thought they had sovereignty in that nation is no longer accessible. So there's again there's a lot of questions to be figured out about like does this stuff get opened up? Will we all be able to benefit from it? Does it become kind of like the internet now where you know you can stand up your own server, connect to the internet and like you're building the internet and you don't need instructions. If if if you can send out an HTTP request and the server responds like we can talk, you know, and so like this next layer of money of intelligence kind of has to follow that or else, you know, like if you think about what made the West great, it was again that the right to digital or the right to property ownership.

And in the online world, we don't live by those same rules, you know, and so we have to figure out at some level how to give people ownership of these systems, of this infrastructure, of the things that we're building in order for like the incentives to be evenly distributed. Otherwise, that's just like it's we're just going to be living like digital slaves inside of whoever, you know, win or take all this system. So he's he so I was just reading here. So he's written a book basically this fill us in a little bit. So he's proposing or he's trying to make sense of it or he's just try what is he actually I think they moved to Singapore and they're actually like building what they call a network state like I don't know what the infrastructure is for that but they're actually like trying to build a digital sovereign nation um that is just kind of connected through a network and I think it's you know like a Bitcoin network it's some kind of decentralized network um but again I just like as as interesting as it is and as as much as I believe in the idea, we're going to go philosophical again.

The in order to have a stable society, right, like at the scale that we have, the only way we got here was to basically give the government a monopoly on violence, right? And what I mean by that is like it's no longer the responsibility of the neighborhood to defend the neighborhood. The police are there for that. And it's no longer the responsibility of the state to defend the nation. It's the military for that. Right? And so we've and and then inside of that system we have laws that say, "Hey, if you follow these laws, then you don't have to worry about the violence. The violence is only for the people that break the laws or to make sure that we're safe inside of these borders, right?"

And so you and if you go all the way back to like ancient tribes, like you you kind of had to figure out your violence for yourself, right? If the neighboring tribe was bigger than me, they could come take my And so in a digital state, if you can't own the property or if you can't own or defend the land, then how do you build a sovereign nation? Because again, the government could just say, "You no longer exist." Like, "We we we we're taking this. This is ours now." Um, and we see governments do that all the time. If they want to build a development and your house is in the way, they can like imminent domain your house and now they're going to build the highway right through the middle of the thing or whatever, right?

Like, and so why wouldn't that apply in the digital world? And so, again, going back to like there's all these fun fundamental tenants that make sense in the physical world that we've known for hundreds or thousands of years that are like fundamental to free society. the freedom of speech, freedom of privacy, freedom of property ownership, freedom to like, you know, like not have your neighbor kill you. That's not really a freedom, but it's kind of like a right that we said, "Hey, let's all get together and make sure our neighbors don't kill each other. Let's put some people in charge of like defending against that type of shit." And that's how you build society at scale.

In the digital world, we don't have any of those rules. We're not following any of those like norms that we've discovered in the physical world are requirements for free and pro prosperous people. And so for a long time in the physical world, we lived in a feudal system where like the peasants own and the king and the royalty, they owned all the land. And maybe you could farm some of it and eat enough just to live. But everything else came up the chain. And right now the digital world is exactly like that. We live in a digital feudal system where everything we do, we farm the lands. We're on social media. We're content creators. We're influencers, whatever.

But all the all the winnings go up to the king, to the Google, to the Mark Zuckerberg, to the Facebooks of the world, you know. And until we fundamentally shift those incentive structures and we have a western style American revolution but for the internet where the creators say, "Hey, we're going to own these networks. We're going to take back these rights." And until that happens at scale, nothing's going to change. And like there's no way to have any sovereignty outside of a government system or outside of like any of these other systems. So um that's probably not interesting to you all. that balagi thing like it's cool to see some things tinkering but again they don't solve that fundamental problem which is the social problem it's the civic problem it's the connection the community problem yeah and it's weird like why why we put so much onus on like why do you think it's important that we create this network state I mean is it because you inevitably see that this is this is where all where all roads point to that we're all going to be just chronically online which we already are or like I think their goal is to usurp some of the regulatory burdens and overburden some like government structures that are being built, right?

So people basically want to extract themselves from the laws of a specific nation or whatever and say, "Hey, we're going to be sovereign over here, which means we have a different way of transacting business and we have a different way of like maybe resolving conflicts. Maybe we're using a lot more smart contracts to like solve problems. So, we don't really need the judicial system as much, you know, like there's all sorts of things that you could like see, hey, there's a lot of value in having some kind of sovereignty in how you solve problems or communicate or do whatever. And so, um and it it just becomes um it becomes a story really. And if you think of like what a what is a country?

A country is a story, right? We have these things called invisible technologies that surround us. And very few of us think of it. Think of like a weekend. What's a weekend? It's a story. You know what is money? Money is a story. Like money has no like the paper that is money has no tangible value in your pocket other than you believe it has money and somebody who's taking it from you will have like it's a story, right? And so we have all these kind of stories that nobody thinks about as technologies. Um and the ability to unify like people to action for a story like why would I again go to violence? Why would I defend your tribe with my life?

I would never do that unless we had some story religion that made us brothers and family at a bigger scale than just our, you know, mom and dad. And so like you need a bigger story for me to say I'm going to give my life to defend you and your family. And so in a nation like in a digital world if you're going to change perspectives, if you're going to do thing like you need a bigger story, you know, and I think everyone's racing to be the person that can tell that story. That's why everyone's racing for social media or for attention or for advertising revenue or whatever. Like everyone just wants to be the place where people go to get information because they control the story and if you can control the story then you can drive people to action and if you can drive people to action you can probably drive people to violence you can drive people to like do things whatever you want you know um and so like and you need to protect that you need to protect those systems for that and again that's why I think community is important and how we connect is important and the idea behind a digital sovereign nation would be that it's a trustless system right bitcoin is trustless right I don't need you don't need to trust me to know that the bitcoin transaction is valid you know, and so maybe could a lot could could that trustless infrastructure make its way into other things where like I don't have to worry about trusting people to know that the transaction is secure or that the value exchange is you know like arbitrated properly.

Um, so I I don't know what the, you know, again, what the end state of this is, but it'd be silly to think that AI and blockchain and digital ownership and these sovereign ideas and how we govern each other is not like, you know, forget about the technology, like forget about the ground level, can you build a website? It's like, can we build something way bigger than that that allows us to continue to be free as people in this world, you know? Yeah. Big stuff. big stuff. Well, I mean, like we've gone through the news. We've we've accomplished our goal. Um, I think it's Sorry if I derailed with like it's hard to it's hard for me to dis like to separate these things in my head.

I've studied like people in philosophy and history for so long that as I see all this digital stuff coming up, it's like, oh, history repeats itself, but it's repeating itself digitally and nobody's seeing the parallels because they don't like they've never seen it before, you You know, and so like the shackles of slavery look way different in a digital world than they do in a physical world. And they almost it doesn't come with like pain. It comes with like euphoria and dopamine and like influencer status and all sorts of And you're just like, you know, so we give ourselves willingly to these systems, but are they good for us long term? Probably not. I think I, you know, low key that's something I've been battling with for the last few days.

just my brain has just been rattling around like what are the consequences of all these things that we're doing and like you know you you look at the the these patterns in in a phil philosophical way whereas I'm looking at in other ways you know I'm seeing regurgitated patterns in in other areas and stuff like that and I'm I've just been like you know for lack of better just not sleeping like because I'm just like where is this all going what is it all leading to and it's almost like a red he is it red herring is that the right word but you're thinking in is am am am am am am am am am am am am am am am am am am am am am I thinking too much about something that's not going to I don't know it's just it's it's a it's a strange world we I'm both excited and terrified all at the same time because yeah well it's it's one of those things too where it's like you can get lost worrying about like who the president of your country is you know for instance Trump let's say because it's a show in the US right now and so you could spend all sorts of I'm getting mad at Trump or supporting Trump or whatever, but like what happens in Washington DC is so far outside of your control.

And so, same thing with the internet stuff. You can think about all these big crazy things and like it's probably not a bad idea to do that. But where I think we can actually like provide value is going back to the small networks and the communities and like how can you make strong stable communities online but also in the real world, right? And in the physical world and that's where you can, you know, you can create a defensible structure. And like this is something interesting for me cuz I live in a place where we get hurricanes, you know, every year. Um, and so like last year we had some big hurricanes and there's a big disconnect when the power goes out and the electricity goes out and it's like how do I connect with my friends?

And so we're talking about like decentralized communication networks. We're talking about like Laura networks and Wi-Fi like uh uh um walkie-talkies that work over like radio bands that can go miles rather than like you know just having the internet. Like the internet's great, but what happens when that's gone? or what happens when you can't text your homie because you know WhatsApp's down or whatever, right? Um, so that's where I think like it's great to think about all these big things, but what I what I usually end up then tying that back to is like how do you take these thoughts of what's happening and localize that in a way that's meaningful or do something meaningful with a small group of people that like hey if something happens or if we need X Y or Z or like you know if if you lose your job like hey can we take care of this person or somebody dies in the family can we feed this person like all these things that again used to be functions of like a church and religion and like we have to rebuild those things even if it's not under the guise of like some spiritual leader.

Like we have to figure out how to like build community and support each other and like build meaningful connections in the real world. Um and not find ourselves at the whim of the social feeds or the algorithms or whatever they decide to do, right? Like the only way to defend against those things is to have strong real world networks. Yeah. Speaking of which, then let's wrap it up there. How can people build strong connections with you? What's uh Wow. Uh X is probably the best way. Yeah. X X X is probably the the the place I spend the most time. I'm on Instagram uh or you can go over to my website rhymar.com and learn more about the different projects I'm working on or um you know how I see the world.

Nice. Well, it's been a fruitful discussion. Um and that's the week's AI news. It's been great having you on. Great bringing that perspective to us. Um we'll wrap it up there. Yeah, right on. Cheers everyone for tuning in. Um, and come speak to us. Come give us feedback on all the sessions. We we love it. We uh we uh really appreciate any sort of feedback you have. And uh we'll see you in the next one. Take care. Yeah. Peace out.